CLEO sign off. Time line to be effective?

[ready.fire.aim]

Great job removing CLEO signoff! Do we have a ball park estimate when the revised process will be in place?

Thanks
RFA

[Cheetah]

Are there any other policies anticipated to go in place as a result of CLEO signoff being stricken? I've heard a lot of talk of tightening things up on trust requirements coming hand in hand.

I'm fortunate enough to have a CLEO who doesn't even blink, usually walk in with my forms and I'm out with a signature in less than 15 minutes. Either way, I'm glad to see this, removes hassle and opens it up for a lot of people not as fortunate as me.

[ExecDirector]

It's a great unknown. There is no proscribed time frame for OMB to finish the new forms proposals and then get the whole thing published in the Federal Register for the required public comment.

My *gut* tells me that it should be done by the end of the year. But that is nothing but a guess... Ideally, the new forms will include the silly citizenship requirement statements and have the excellent side benefit of eliminating that part as a separate process...

As for trusts... NFA Branch has already tightened up on this. They actually check to make sure that your trust is correct and proper for your specific state, etc. Many of the cut and pastes that folks have been grabbing off the net to save a buck are absolutely worthless if improperly applied or used. Same goes for many applications of Legal Zoom, Quicken, etc. The documents just do not accomplish what they need to do to be legal and proper. I always boggle when I hear of folks willing to plunk down $20k for a machine gun, but will not spend the $400 to get their docs done right by a lawyer who actually knows what he/she is doing on NFA items.

There is also an effort to formalize what many FFL/SOT's have been doing as a matter of course. When *I* deliver an NFA item to a trust, LLC, or other corporation, I always run a NICS on the actual person that is taking physical delivery. There have been cases of prohibited persons receiving and being in possession of NFA items via the trust/corp route and doing the NICS check for this gives one more layer of confidence.

[JohnBrown]

It's a great unknown. There is no proscribed time frame for OMB to finish the new forms proposals and then get the whole thing published in the Federal Register for the required public comment.

My *gut* tells me that it should be done by the end of the year. But that is nothing but a guess... Ideally, the new forms will include the silly citizenship requirement statements and have the excellent side benefit of eliminating that part as a separate process...

As for trusts... NFA Branch has already tightened up on this. They actually check to make sure that your trust is correct and proper for your specific state, etc. Many of the cut and pastes that folks have been grabbing off the net to save a buck are absolutely worthless if improperly applied or used. Same goes for many applications of Legal Zoo, Quicken, etc. The documents just do not accomplish what they need to do to be legal and proper. I always boggle when I hear of folks willing to plunk down $20k for a machine gun, but will not spend the $400 to get their docs done right by a lawyer who actually knows what he/she is doing on NFA items.

There is also an effort to formalize what many FFL/SOT's have been doing as a matter of course. When *I* deliver an NFA item to a trust, LLC, or other corporation, I always run a NICS on the actual person that is taking physical delivery. There have been cases of prohibited persons receiving and being in possession of NFA items via the trust/corp route and doing the NICS check for this gives one more layer of confidence.

Most of you will remember that the NFATCA started this entire CLEO process nearly five years ago. So many things at ATF have changed in that time that we don't know from one day to the next who will review the process at ATF and what additional requirements may be put in place before it is released. Like a freight train, this is definitely on the tracks and working its way home but man has it taken forever. My Dad always used to tell me that nothing good comes easy and this is one fine example of that.
The truth of the matter is that we have no idea what has happened internally at ATF since we started this process. All we know is that this train is still on the tracks. In terms of the give and take we don't know the specifics but you can bet your hind quarter something has changed. Just keep your fingers crossed and the minute we know anything, this will be the place you will read it first.

[Cheetah]

Thanks for the info, and for the effort gents!

[Shermanator]

Looks like the proposed rule change is up for review?

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201210&RIN=1140-AA43

However it looks like you will have to mail a copy of the applicaiton to the CLEO? and also requires photos and fingerprinting for all applicaitons including trust and corporations????

Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.

[ExecDirector]

YES SIR! This is the very first step in OMB publication of the process...

[Shermanator]

Jeff,

Of course this is showing up on other forums, and the a lot of people that have done trust or even those that have done LLC in the past feel like they are being thrown under the bus. The new rule changes specfically states that Fingerprints and Photos would be required for those submitting Form 1 or Form 4 for trust and LLC?

Reading on another thread here (http://www.nfatcaforums.org/showthread.php?16-CLEO-Signature Post #4 and your reply in Post #5) you said that it was rumors that the new change was going to require all parties in a trust/LLC to submit fingerprints and photos, and that is EXACTLY what the it says in (1) and (2) in the rule change!!

Strick all that is in italics here. well it seems that the rule change just says the person signing and submitting the form is the one that must do that. So is this something that NFATCA wanted or is it something that the ATF came up on their own?

So can you please address those questions?

EDIT:
Basically removing what is in Italics but leaving it there, and adding in what is in the BOLD

[ExecDirector]

ATF was going to close up the "hole" that was allowing prohibited persons to acquire firearms through trusts and corps. That was going to happen regardless of the CLEO situation. As to HOW they are going to accomplish it, we really do not know. A Form 4 is for a transfer and a Form 1 is for making. There would be no additional transfer occurring and you can only make an item once... So perhaps they are envisioning a new "notification" system.

[ExecDirector]

The past few months ATF has been in radio silence with us and this is the first publication of their position. While we had inklings of one direction or the other, we knew that it would be a very fluid process and that much of it would not be divulged to us during "deliberation."

We did not offer up anything in order to press getting CLEO removed (and it hasn't happened yet). We knew that the prohibited person via trust/corp issue was a primary concern of ATF's and we knew that they would do something. And rather than have many regulatory change fronts going, we knew they would create an "omnibus" effort. Even with fingerprints and photos, all of the BEST reasons for having a trust still exist: elimination of future transfer fees and paperwork, no probate, no wills...

[Shermanator]

Okay lets re-examine what the abstract says: which will be in italics and my replys in bold I will first try to explain what I think the change means and then go over what I think the potential problems or issues I can see from this.

Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would
That is basically a title and that states the proposed changeds would be the following.

(1) add a definition for the term "responsible person";
This will be pretty straight forward and I think this only applies to Entities (Trust/LLC's etc..), and it will include all members of the Entitiy.


(2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints;
This is what I think will happen:
An added form or forms that will be required that will list every person that is part of the entity. I could imagine the form would look like the following description:Left side half of the page will be boxes that will require, Full Name and address and on the right half of the page have a place to attach a photograph of the person in that box OR it will be very similiar to box 22 on the current FFL applications but will add a box to attach a photograph. Also for every person listed you must include TWO sets of fingerprints. Simple fact this will prevent prohibited persons from being able to use a Trust or LLC to acquire NFA firearms.

Issues or problems I see with this:
It doesn't mention anything about this being a ONE time submittal, sounds more like they are going to require this EVERY time and in duplicate. If that is the case applications with Entities of 10+ membersis going to back log the background check system so transfer times WILL increase 10 fold or more.


(3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and
This is what I think will happen:
All Indviduals or Entities that submits a Form 1 or Form 4 to the NFA branch will also have to send a copy of all forms being submitted or maybe just the Form 1 or Form 4 to your local CLEO pretty much how it currently is when you get a C&R FFL. It currently doesn't make it clear which form or forms will have to sent to the CLEO. I like that it basically says F*CK YOU to all those CLEO that wouldn't sign in the past.

Issues or problems I see with this:
The CLEO will/can also start keeping a database of what NFA firearms are in their county however they may not be legally allowed to keep those copies since they are considered "tax" documents. Of course who knows if the CLEO are currently keeping copies of forms they have signed in the past? I really don't like this section and think it shouldn't be a requirement at all.


(4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
Honestly this really benifits everyone because even if your CLEO did sign, it may have taken him weeks or months to sign it and you were at the mercy of the CLEO, and we know when the NFA was established in 1934 they relied on local CLEO to know who was a "bad guy" in their jurisdiction. This is a big WIN!!!!

[ExecDirector]

Nicely done. I only take exception to your number 1 review. I feel confident that just as an FFL holder can list responsible persons that do not include *every* person, so will trusts and corps. For instance, the trust could list the current trustees as responsible persons and not the beneficiaries. And that list could change over time. I suspect a new form in the offing. And with that said, I'm not sure how ATF intends to regulate this. Let's say I add my daughter to the responsible person list. She's already a trustee and beneficiary on the trust document, but I choose not to make her responsible until she is 21. She becomes 21 and I add her. She's technically already able to possess by the trust, but I assume there is going to be some waiting period while NFA Branch "approves" the addition and notifies us. Or maybe not!

I could also see this going the way of barrel length change notifications on SBR's. All you do is notify ATF and you only get an acknowledgement if you request one. I just don't know. It's a very kludgy, unwieldy mess that is coming, no matter what.

As for the CLEO notification: consider that a political sop. CLEO's already had the ability to keep store and codify this data before. This doesn't go away. This, from what I understand, was the trade advocated by the Sheriff's Association: CLEO's give up the signature process and get blanket notification without having to participate as a gatekeeper. Many CLEO's hated being the gatekeeper because their opponents used it as a club in elections. Now EVERY CLEO is on an equal footing.

As for storage of the information, again, I suppose they could and always have been able to do it, but... There is no federal funding to provide for storage of the records. And I seriously doubt that in this day and age that many jurisdictions are going to allocate much additional funding for a "new" record keeping program caused by the feds. I could be wrong.

[BWE Firearms]

Any updates? I know ATF was saying they were hoping everything would be ready to go aroung the begining of the year.